“We haven’t seen a Dungeon yet, all we’re doing is talking to people, bringing down corrupt political figures, and killing monsters out in the wilderness. This is really different.”
My 4e campaign consisted of my homebrew storyline, which was the backdrop for the published adventures I hacked a bit to fit my storyline. By the published adventures, I mean the ones that were the first set of modules put out for 4e by Wizards of the Coast. Now, let me say, I enjoyed running those modules. Sure, some people had massive problems with Keep on the Shadowfell for example, but I found it as a nice way to get into 4e-for both DM’s and PC’s. I had no big issues with it. Sure, they were combat focused with some roleplaying sprinkled in, but we had a good time with them. The Dungeon Delve book also served a part in my campaign, as a source of ready made encounters I could re-skin and shoehorn into my game as well.
All was fine and dandy, until we hit Paragon, as character options got too unwieldy for my players, combats took forever, and the game ended… If you read my blog regularly you know the story… So now here we are with Dragon Age…
Dragon Age has a completely different published adventure philosophy than 4e has, or at least had upon its release (the later adventures written by Logan Bonner are pretty good). Right now there are only 5 published adventures (officially) available for the Dragon Age game. One comes included in the boxed set as an introductory adventure, another comes in the GM Screen, and three come in an adventure supplement called “Blood in Ferelden”. Since the boxed set only covers levels 1-5, all these are low level adventures meant to give you a clue as to how adventures for Dragon Age should be presented and run. I’ve already run the one in the GM Screen, “A Bann too Many”, and the first one in the “Blood” supplement, “The Amber Rage”.
Warning, there are spoilers ahead: “A Bann too Many” has the party arriving at a town, only to be hired by the newly elected Bann to go search for a group of bandits causing trouble. Things end up being a little more complex, as it seems the Bann may be working with the bandits. It’s up to the PC’s to do some investigative work and figure out what the heck is going on. In fact, there is a lot of thinking and investigative work to be done in this adventure. For a group of new-to-rpg’s PC’s, there is a lot of roleplaying in this adventure. A lot. In “Amber Rage”, the PC’s are sent into the wildlands to find a cure for a disease that’s turning people into savage, rabid ragers. Along the way, they are forced to make difficult choices, like determining who lives or dies, saving children or not, and even essentially starving to death a sentient race of beings due to the nature of the cure they have to find. It is powerful stuff, and it can get dark.
So why do I say that it’s all in the presentation? Well, 4e had its fair share of attacks hurled at it when it was first released. Critics dismissed it as an MMO, a board game, a miniature tactical game, and who-knows-what-else. The fact is that the game is what you make it. There’s no reason 4e can’t be played and written in the same way it that what I’m describing above was. It’s really up to you as a DM to do with the tools as you please, and a good DM will strip the adventure or module of the bad parts, keep the good parts, and fill in the rest of the details with his or her stuff. The problem comes in the way 4e was presented for consumption. I can now see, 2.5 years later, that the way the stuff was originally presented was not ideal if the hopes were to get people not to see 4e as more than a combat-oriented rpg. The modules were really just a series of set pieces, one after the other, with a little storyline stringing them together. And the Dungeon Delve book was, well, 3 encounters that exist in their own universe and that’s that. Sure, there was the obligatory “to expand this delve…” write-ups, but for the most part it was combat-combat-combat. Remember what I said about good DM’s stripping away at this stuff and hacking it to fit the needs? Yes, it can be done. I eventually learned to do it, out of necessity, because my players demanded it based on the feedback I got and the body language I read throughout the nearly 1.75 years or whatever it was that my 4e game ran.
The quote at the top was from one of my players after we finished our last DA session. We’ve been so used to starting out a system as newbies inside a dungeon with just a left passageway and a right passageway, that anything beyond that seems a little odd. But it shouldn’t be. Again, it’s all in the presentation. The first impressions of 4e, with the Dungeon Delves book, Keep on the Shadowfell, and the 3 Encounter format of the early Dungeon mag adventures left an image of the system being combat heavy, and everything else second. Even if it was a skewed and inaccurate impression, the presentation made it look like so. Now with Dragon Age, after playing just two published adventures meant for newbies, the image is that the system is roleplay, investigation, and touch choices first, and combat second. Again, even if it’s a skewed and inaccurate one, that’s the image the game has projected at my table.
It’s all in the presentation.
www. Newbie DM .com 
Alton
February 18, 2011
It is all in the presentation. Even WotC states that the adventures and modules can be modified accordingly.
I think the presentation depends on the group you are playing with. For example, I play 4 games weekly.
1st group-is a virtual group. So technology plays a big factor in our gaming. Roleplaying is good also.
2nd group – heavy on roleplaying, short combats. Excellent!
3rd-4th groups-Extremely combat heavy.
This is the way all the groups like it and whoever is DMing at the time presents it the way the players want it.
It is all in the presentation.
Excellent article.
Dixon Trimline
February 18, 2011
Bravo and hear hear, I genuinely appreciate the view of the game I love (4E) through the filter of a game with a better presentation (DA). The examples you give (A Bann too Many and Amber Rage) sound like games I’d love to run and love to play. We can all learn from their morally grey storytelling.
Now, was the quote from your player said in dismay or wonder?
newbiedm
February 18, 2011
@alton – thanks! 4 games? I wish I had that kind of time. Good for you.
@dixon – The quote was made really as a statement of fact. Not really an opinion, and if there was one it wasn’t shared. I can tell youthat they are enjoying the game though, fwiw.
KnightOfTheWolf
February 18, 2011
After reading this, I think I’m going to have to give Dragon Age a try and see what my group thinks of it. Sounds like an interesting and well presented game.
It also helps that rulebooks aren’t mammoth tomes. I like reading, but sometimes the books just get so large that my mind goes into “textbook mode”. 🙂
Daniel M. Perez
February 18, 2011
This dovetails pretty nice with Rob Schwalb’s recent post about the 4e Format: http://www.robertjschwalb.com/2011/02/does-format-matter/
This is getting joinked for the Dragon Age Oracle, btw. 🙂
Draco
February 18, 2011
I’d like to see a follow up to this article, explaining and contrasting the differences between D&D presentation and Dragon Age presentation and how to get the most out of both.
You spend a lot of time explaining what’s “wrong” with the 4e way of presenting encounters. I’d like to hear more about Dragon Age and what it does “right” to foster role play and general out-of-combat play.
newbiedm
February 18, 2011
No, wait… it’s not the way encounters are presented, as I’ve often said that the 4e format is the easiest format for new DM’s to get into. I don’t think I’ve ever written anything bad about the presentation of 4e’s encounter. What I’m talking about is the sum of the parts. The adventures have a reputation of just being a combat encounter assembly line, and I don’t think you can argue with that being true… more so in 4e’s early life. And the Dungeon Delve book, while useful, didn’t do much to change that perspective.
Again, t he encoutner format isn’t the problem. I love 4e’s stat blocks, I love the tactics they provide the dm for the monsters, and overall I think it is a very good, solid presentation. My issue is adventure design, and how that can skew people’s perspectives on the game. The reputation 4e got from the naysayers comes partly from that. Dragon Age, perhaps trying to stay as far away from that criticism as possible, just presents their adventures differently. There aren’t as many combat encounters when compared to 4e. Good or bad? Depends what you are into.
Draco
February 18, 2011
I agree 4e’s better off than it was, certainly.
So, my understanding that Dragon Age’s adventures are designed with an eye to giving players moral issues to deal with, more in-depth NPC interaction, and less combat.
I am now thinking over the RPGA and Dragon adventures I’ve run, and I have to admit that there’s not a lot of serious stuff going on outside of structured combats and skill challenges. I don’t remember seeing many puzzles (literal or investigative) or anything requiring a lot of thought in published adventures. The only one that comes to mind is Monument of the Ancients (by the James brothers) in Dungeon 170.
newbiedm
February 18, 2011
It’s all in the presentation. 🙂
Swordgleam
February 18, 2011
I would love to see someone run a convention game where they just announce the plot of the one-shot but not the system. And then run the game in a completely different system than you’d expect from the type of plot – and do it spectacularly. In fact, I’d love it if a group of people at the same con agreed to do this.
Draco
February 18, 2011
On reread, I want to also say (with the disclaimer that I know it’s not related to the main point) that hacking adventures to fit a different setting (or even the same setting, but a different locale) is part of the fun of game prep for me.
Frank "Darth Jerod Foulis
February 18, 2011
With regards to 4e how much was published adventures and how much of it was your own design? I saw your quote on twitter about not being in a dungeon in Dragon Age. I am not trying to be argumentative with this. I have been playing/running 4e for a year and dungeon count is 1 and that is because I ran some of Keep on the Shadowfell. The rest has been homemade designs and a smattering of adventure hooks and a few adventures from Dungeon.
Heavy Roleplaying and Combat just like my players like. When presentation is in the form of published adventures, a tool by which the goal is to showcase the system for DM’s using all the mechanics in the rules and then you compare it to Dragon Age I would call it Apples and Oranges. Dragon Age is cool, the story is cool, the rules are cool I have not played it yet but I know a lot who have. The one similar vein the two games have in my opinion is a Fantasy Setting.
If you skip the DMG completely and stick with published adventures your opinion of 4e will be skewed like you said. The adventures are not designed, in my opinion to compose a campaign and that could be part of the problem with burnout. I own every adventure, do I run them? Nope I mined them for the NPC’s and ideas and for some adventures. Honestly I get more out of Dungeon adventures than I did out of any of the published modules.
The Monster Vault and DM Kit have some excellent ideas as well for NPC’s and locations. Personally I do not like modules even though that is what I grew up on with OD&D through todays edition. I do think the evolution of the 4e module has come a long way. From Keep on the Shadowfell to the Slaying Stone you can see how it has evolved just like how they evolved statblocks and skill challenges.
The article is insightful I just got the impression your experience is from more of a published adventure standpoint then a homemade design. Please please please correct me if I am wrong.
newbiedm
February 19, 2011
I hope people aren’t taking this as a “bashing 4e article”, because that’s not the intent. I’m talking about the way that first impressions can skew someone’s perception of the game, and how that has affected-both-these games.
There’s a reason why 4e got stuck with the “just minis combat” label early on, and it’s because the initial wave of products encouraged that perception. I think that’s a fairly undeniable statement.
Did I personally use the published mods that way? No, but I’m sure several new dm’s and players out there did. In fact, I know they did based on emails and voicemails I would get on the subject. Mike from Slyflourish.com ran the whole 1-30 camnpaign using the published modules.
Here’s the thing though, 4e being combat only is just a perception that can be avoided by doing what you said, yes. Just like the Dragon Age published stuff is doing its best to avoid being perceived as combat heavy by publishing a different type of adventure. A combat lover could ignore *that* and just make fight-fight-fight DA adventures too.
My article at its core is about how first impressions can alter the long term perception of what’s being looked at. It happened to 4e, people still label it as combat focused, for better or worse. And I suspect DA will be seen as a RP heavy system down the line, even if it doesn’t have to be.
Alton
February 19, 2011
@ Newbie DM
@ Frank Jerod Foulis
I know when I started 4th, I was pleasantly surprised. A huge change from the rules oriented 3.5. Funny thing though. I found it to be a perfect, low stress edition. My group found it a greater opportunity to roleplay. Once again, gaming systems are how people perceive them and use them to their groups needs.
I noticed after awhile 4th edition is what the DM makes out of it for their players. On paper 4th edition modules look extremely combat heavy, page after page. New people to the game may follow it to the letter, but any experience DM can change it to anything they want, and play it any way they want.
So if you want to present 4th Edition as a combat heavy system, you can. If you want to present it as a good roleplaying system, then do so. It is all in the presentation.
Frank "Darth Jerod Foulis
February 19, 2011
@Newbie DM
@Alton
I just want you to know I did not see it as a bash on 4e. I leaned a bit that direction with focus on talk of the published material over what the DM makes of the adventure. I think that is the point I was trying to make the Alton there pointed out
Fin Aeros
February 24, 2011
I agree with the statements about early 4E being cookie-cutter-like combat encounters with sometimes thin story connections. I’m glad that’s started to change, particularly with Encounters.
I’ll have to look into Dragon Age. It sounds enjoyable. My group of gamers branched off from 4E into Eclipse Phase, possibly the furthest from D&D we could have gone at the time (since the Warhammer 40K books weren’t out yet). The percentile based system coupled with a dystopia-esque post-apocalyptic trans-humanity setting contrasted quite sharply with 4E, but in a way that sort of highlights what each system is good at.
Change can be enjoyable and fun, and learning new things is rarely bad. Like you keep saying, it’s all in the presentation.
P
March 3, 2011
It’s a bit eerie how much the homebrew 4e campaign I’ve recently started running has so much in common with the Dragon Age campaign you describe above: PC’s hired to track down a criminal gang, navigating political ambition and corruption of powerful NPCs, even saving children from a zombie-like plague.
Having just returned to table-top RPGs after over a decade away, my aim had been to create a campaign world with communal story-telling specifically in mind: where the players’ decisions (i.e. their role-playing) would necessarily shape the plot through complex social and political relationships with each other as well as NPCs.
It’s been fairly taxing at times to provide all the detail in order to keep the story rich. But the real issue I’m running up against (not related to 4e in particular, I can’t imagine) is trying to get the players to take the reins as much as I’d like them to. They spend so much time playing politics and trying to keep their own PC’s secret motivations close to the vest that we’ve developed serious narrative inertia. It’s seeming more and more like we need to move back in the direction of left passage/right passage fare in order to actually move the story along.
I guess this really drives home the point that gaming systems and campaign style can really vary independently from one another.
Draco
March 4, 2011
P, sounds like you’re trying to infuse some indie-storygaming mentality into your D&D and having about as much success with it as I did.
I started by giving players minor control over story plot points via a token system similar to Action Points. That went over like a lead baloon. They used it a couple times, but nothing really major ever really came of it.
In the end, I’ve settled on a combination of using Paizo’s Plot Twist cards (with mixed results) and giving my players some on-the-fly world building power which is limited to stuff like giving NPCs names and quirks, and deciding whether the local town has a certain kind of shop.
They seem happy with that arrangement.
I really don’t think most players who show up to a D&D game are all that terribly interested (unfortunately) in playing a Houses of the Blooded/Burning Wheel/Fiasco kind of game, and D&D certainly doesn’t go out of its way to foster that kind of play in the first place.
P
March 4, 2011
I suppose that is what I’ve been trying to do, though without as much of an explicit system as story points or plot twist cards. Essentially, I was hoping that by opening up the field of possible decisions for my PCs (what quests to take on, what information they believe, who they are loyal to), they would end up shaping the story by default and I would just be in a position to design adventures by responding to those decisions. Additionally, the players all had the responsibility of developing pretty complete back-stories for their PCs, and I’m trying to incorporate those stories as much as possible into the campaign.
In fact, what I think is happening is that faced with such wide range of possible outcomes the players are taking more of their real world attitudes about risk-avoidance into the game and acting in a much more cautious and conservative way than you would expect from, say, a dragonborn paladin. It’s this cautiousness that I think is a major factor in creating the inertia we’re experiencing.