This is an interesting question, and I invite readers to chime in as well with their own suggestions for the listener. I think the most important thing to do when you have a situation like this and are finding it hard to judge is to go back an re-read the Experience Points section in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master Guide.
So lets look at the situations, and see how the DMG rules it. The listener gave quest xp for finishing some sort of quest, and the player tried to kill the npc involved for his xp value. The first thing I’d ask is “was that an encounter?”. If the answer is no, and the pc’s were in no threat, then no xp should be given. Remember, the pc’s can’t walk around with a bag of rats to kill them and get xp. If there was no challenge, no encounter, no threat, then there should be no xp awarded.
Remember that xp is a reward for overcoming challenges, not a payment for killing every living thing in the game.
Now, your idea of altering the way you hand out xp is perfectly valid, and the DMG presents several ways to do it. In my own game, I hand out XP at my discretion, usually at the end of the night, and I monitor the rate I advance my players. They aren’t counting every experience point they earn or hope to earn, and have learned to assume that I’m advancing them as they should be. It works out well for us.
In the end, the best advice I can give you is use your DM’s power at the table. You’re in charge of how you run your game. Use your discretion, common sense, and be fair. If a player is clearly taking advantage of a situation you’ve laid out that wasn’t meant to evolve into a combat, judge it as so. “That’s not a challenge, sorry, no xp, and now you’ve needlessly killed a member of the town guard. Oh-oh.” Turn the situation into a complication. Maybe that will get them to see that their actions will have consequences for the entire party, and they’ll think twice about doing certain things.
I hope this helped a bit, and I encourage readers to give their own opinions in the comment section below.
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Brian Engard
May 15, 2010
My inclination, if my group were doing things like this, would be to add a bit more transparency to how you award XP. If your players are making a habit of negotiating with villains to get skill challenge XP, then killing them to get more XP, I’d make it crystal clear to them that, regardless of how they solve the challenge, they will get the exact same amount of XP.
I think there’s a history in D&D of XP being tied to killing things. 4e has tried to get away from that somewhat with quest XP, skill challenge XP, and some of the methods for awarding XP presented in the DMG2, but the fact that every monster and NPC has an XP value undermines this a little bit, perceptually, at least.
NewbieDM, I tend to agree with your take on this: namely, that the XP you get for a monster is not necessarily for killing the monster, but for overcoming the challenge. If I’m running an encounter with goblins, kobolds, or some other cowardly creature, and the party slaughters half of them and the other half run away, I’m awarding full XP for that. Similarly, if the PCs chase down the fleeing enemy and kill them all off, they’re not getting any extra XP for that (though they may have just prevented the enemy from warning others).
Another technique you can use, if you want to encourage the PCs to be less homicidal, is to actually award more XP for keeping the villain alive. For example, if the mad mage had a bounty on his head from the local constabulary, but they wanted him for questioning, assign a quest to bring him in alive. Make it plain that they’ll get the same amount of XP for subduing the mage as they would for killing him, but if they kill him they’ll miss out on the quest. There may also be in-game consequences for killing enemies willy-nilly.
The bottom line is that, if your players are clearly gaming the system for extra XP, you need to change the perception of how XP is gained. Tie it to accomplishment rather than body count.
Behemoth0089
May 15, 2010
Well, this is really useful for newbie DMs as for old DMs. I think its a common trouble in sessions, more with new groups who don’t know how do you play and so.
In my case, I do the same thing on 2E and 4E as well, I manage the XP for the characters so they don’t know how much XP are left for gaining a level. Its a little more of work to do, but it works well with troublesome players.
Boone
May 15, 2010
There should be no XP given for something like that. First, it’s bad RP; second, it’s clearing an attempt to cheat the system; and third, it makes the game less fun overall. If your players being dumb impacts your enjoyment as the DM everyone suffers. I once had a party chase down fleeing kobolds because they wanted the XP; it drove me crazy because I had made it clear they had dealt with the encounter and wouldn’t get more XP for killing them, but they persisted. The fight took about 40 minutes longer than it should have because of it and I was in a bad mood by the end. The game went downhill from there, all because I wasn’t in the mood anymore.
GURPS is a good system for getting over things like this if you’re looking for one; in GURPS you are awarded the equivalent of XP at the GM’s discretion at the end of the session. You get points for staying in character and completing quests but lose them for abandoning responsibilities or acting out of character(even if it results in a quest completion). There’s no inherent bonus for killing monsters so the temptation isI used GURPS for a zombie campaign once after trying it in D20 and having the players wade through huge crowds of zombies for the XP.
If you’re really desperate you could just keep track of encounters. If you’re building encounters as the DMG recommends you should go through 10 in the course of a level.
Dan
May 15, 2010
I prefer the system of leveling up my PC’s without their knowledge. That is… I don’t let them know how they’re doing for XP. This accomplishes a few things
1. It keeps them on the edge, never knowing
2. It provides for leveling up to come at a more epic moment
3. It gives me some loose guidlines to encounter building… for example, if I really want my PC’s to come out of a dungeon at level 4, and I’m several encounters shy, I would just tell them they achieved it. Throwing in some random, on-the-whim battles/skill challenges is a good technique, sure, but sometimes it just -doesn’t- fit into the story line. I’d hate to be held back from the ultimate conclusion for the sake of some numbers.
On the opposite end of that spectrum, perhaps I’ve designed a dungeon a little too difficult, and I don’t want them to advance past level 4 before they come out and explore the town (or what have you) I don’t want to sacrifice these amazing encounters i’ve prepared for (again) the sake of some numbers.
Sure, the players might get the sense that reaching level 5 took longer then reaching levels 6 or 7, but I also like that a lot. I don’t think leveling up should be taken as lightly as “okay, you have gotten enough XP… you’re better now. I think levels 2-30 should be a unique, special moment of greatness. It’s hard to plan exactly when thats going to happen unless you take control over XP a bit.
Despite the way I do things, I always feel that questions like this are simply answered best by the following:
“You’re the DM, do what you want”
If you’re players don’t like the way you rule things, perhaps they’re not the players you should be DMing. Plenty of people out there are in need of a dedicated DM. Perhaps it’s time you find some people who fit in better with your playing style.
Swordgleam
May 15, 2010
Someone who would do that kind of thing is probably not okay with leveling by fiat. My players like it because they’re all (mostly) about story. That guy, however, is about big numbers and getting more powerful.
The solution is less “change how you DM” and more “discuss expectations.” Does he think the end goal of D&D is getting as high in level as he can? If so, figure out if you want to run a game where that’s the central focus. If you do, great for you both, if you don’t, better for both of you to figure this out now or at least one of you is going to end up miserable soon.
Colmarr
May 16, 2010
I’d solve this problem with that time-honored D&D tradition: hit the players with the DMG and tell them to stop being d!cks 😛
Tourq
May 17, 2010
Ever since 4e came out, I’ve pretty much thrown out experience points. I just look at where the characters are in the story, what they have accomplished, and then arbitrarily decide when they gain a level, when it makes sense to gain a level.
Let’s say the players just fought a dragon, and are now close to leveling. An easy encounter with a few kobolds is not going to improve anyone at that point, it just doesn’t make sense.
My players simply level-up when it seem right, not because they got a high-score.
-Tourq
Devious
May 17, 2010
“the player tried to kill the npc involved for his xp value” ?
Kick the dumbass out of the group.
Nevyn
May 17, 2010
@Colmarr – I like your style.
I like the idea of just levelling at the correct point, but I play pbp games, and not-quite-monthly games, so I also need to give them some rewards *much* more often than they would actually level. So looks like I’m stuck with XP…
thadeousc
May 17, 2010
I agree with the over all point of this post. No matter what the XP and it’s flow is in the hands of the DM. No matter how the players may try to “break” the game so they can get more it all comes down to how much and when the DM wants to hand it out. Each DM and group of players should work out their own system of rewards.
kelsey
May 17, 2010
I do exactly what Tourq does. We don’t keep track of XP at all. I find my group (a bunch of min/maxers) likes it better as well since it’s less bookkeeping on their end.
I like it because my group isn’t worrying about how much XP they got from an encounter and I can control the pace better. For example, if the group is 100 XP away from leveling and the next dungeon is designed for them to be a higher level, I can just tell them to level up instead of throwing in a meaninless encounter just for the XP. I can just focus on the story.
maarten
May 17, 2010
I see a lot of comments talking about handing out XP / leveling characters based on “where they are in the story”. How would you handle it differently if the campaign was less “story arc” and more “players exploring the world”? i.e. the campaign is the story of this group of adventurers as opposed to the story of “how the intrepid adventurers stopped the lich lord from taking over the country / world / plane”.
Tourq
May 18, 2010
@ maarten –
Forget about the story. Level the characters every two to three sessions (or longer if you like). As the characters progress, just give them level-appropriate encounters.
Done and done.
-Tourq
Begindnd
May 19, 2010
When I played Neverwinter nights I basically would kill as much as possible to gain the EXP. I realised that you gain EXP more from killing the enemy rather then negotiating with them. Thinking back, that’s poor role play…if a player is doing that with the only reason to get XP, I would suggest that is poor role play and would be infact ruining the game. The characters in the game won’t know about the concept of EXP, so they shouldn’t go round killing everyone!
GamePunk26
May 20, 2010
WTF? Are you playing with the Knights of the Dinner Table? That is immature and annoying behavior. If that is going to be an issue, eliminate xp. My players would never do something like that, but I don’t like having to keep track of xp, so they level up at the end of each “Chapter” of the game story. Approximately 10 encounters, but I also give them credit for the 2 hours of role-play they do when they are in between encounters. 4e has the best options for DMs and you should embrace them. If that fails, tell the PCs you’re going to give them a bunch of bonus xp for defeating a really tough encounter and make it too hard for them. Dead PCs don’t get xp. Then tell them to re-roll and not act like fucking assholes next time.
Chris
May 26, 2010
I played in a campaign where we had a guy who always wanted experience.
Once, we went to a camp of gnolls who were attacking travellers. Most of the group went off with the gnoll’s leader while me and another stealthy character stayed hidden behind a wall. We stole everything we could find while the others talked with the leader. The one with the highest Diplomacy score happened to be this guy, who was also Chaotic Evil. He managed to convince the gnolls to stop attacking travellers and instead attack a farming village farther away(only because 2 of our players who objected to it failed their knowledge rolls, and therefore didn’t know about the village) We left the camp, and our DM gave us the experience. This guy then decided he wanted to go back to the camp and kill everything. When the DM objected, he made an excuse that he wanted to save the farming village. Not only was this not in character, he also clearly just wanted the experience. The DM gave us experience for killing the gnolls as well, which I and a couple other players found was wrong. After all, our characters don’t know what experience is; they’re not going to do something just to gain a level, because they don’t understand levelling.
That guy tried to do the same thing a few sessions later, with a few river trolls. However, the DM told him that it was pointless, and he would not gain any experience for it, so the guy gave up.
I like the idea of awarding experience at the end of the session. If I ever DM, I’ll probably try that.
by_the_sword
May 29, 2010
Newbie:
I hope that you adjusted the player’s alignment accordingly? Killing a person for a purpose other than self defense might be considered an evil act.
by_the_sword
May 29, 2010
I would also like to add that your player was meta-gaming in a big way. As others have stated before me, it was poor role playing.
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