“You enter a room, the smell in here’s musky. The ground is covered in a fine dust, and you can see footprints, along with a few drops of fresh blood.”
“The creatures must have come through here. I want to roll perception, maybe to see if I hear something… 15… Anything?”
“You do, you hear soft breathing noises from the shadows in the far northwest corner.”
“I tell my companions.”
“When you do, the creatures step out from the darkness, revealing themselves. Roll for initiative.”
Another player looks up from his phone… “Wait, what??”
A twitter conversation caught my eye the other day:
“A disruptive smash cut”, to use an film editing term, is a great way to describe the effect of calling for initiative. Usually, in my home game, the call for initiative wakes up one or two players from their cell phone induced trance. That’s a topic for another day, sure, but it ties into this. The initiative roll tells my players that story time is over, now we get into a fight. It’s attention grabbing, it makes people pick up their dice, it’s part of D&D, it’s a call to action. But I think i might get rid of it entirely. Precisely for those very same reasons. I want flow, I want focus, and I want smooth transitions, not smash cuts.
Here’s a thing… I thought about writing this article without having read the section on initiative variants in the DMG (which I picked up to read 5 minutes before writing this post at 1 AM).
I threw this on twitter today:
And I got a ton of responses. How would that play? Here’s what I’m hoping to get. I’ll use the same example from the top there…
“You enter a room, the smell in here’s musky. The ground is covered in a fine dust, and you can see footprints, along with a few drops of fresh blood.”
“The creatures must have come through here. I want to roll perception, maybe to see if I hear something… 15… Anything?”
“You do, you hear soft breathing noises from the shadows in the far northwest corner.”
“I tell my companions.”
“When you do, the creatures step out from the darkness, revealing themselves. They are walking towards you, their claws pointed in your direction. They are coming closer, 15 feet, 10 feet, if you’re going to act, now would be a good time.”
“I’m rushing towards them, and slashing the leader with my sword. 15”
“Good, the sword strikes its side, the creature coils in pain, it’s going to attack you. The other two are going to move toward Larry…”
Not the most evocative description, fine, but you get the idea. Everything just kind of flowed. Page 270 of the 5e DMG has a section on initiative variants, and one calls for Passive Dexterity as the way to determine initiative order (10 + Dex Modifier). I was thinking more of Dexterity score as the way to determine initiative order, with ties with NPCs going to the PC’s, and allowing the PCs to determine who acts when in case of ties amongst themselves.
So if Jack, Jill and Larry are fighting a trio of Orcs (12 Dexterity). Their dexterities are Jack 16, Larry 15, Orcs 12, Jill 10, I can already have an order of how things should progress during the encounter, and I’ll give Jack a verbal cue that he can act first.
And how about adding the alternate plot point mechanic found in page 269 of the DMG to this? So Jack goes, but the DM wants to have his orcs jump ahead of Larry for tactical reasons… he rewards Larry with a plot point in exchange for taking over his initiative slot. Now Larry can alter the game a bit on his turn, maybe finding a weak spot on the orcs, or a vial of poison in his belt pouch…
I know for many of you I’m probably trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, but that smash cut analogy really resonated with me. Marvel Heroic and Dungeon World both have non-traditional initiative systems, with the former having a great system where players themselves pick who goes next. Read about it here.
I’m still formulating my thoughts about this, and perhaps this post isn’t very clear, but I think I want to move in this direction. Maybe just taking Marvel’s approach completely, (although it may may things wonky) or simply going with the one I describe above.
How about you guys? Anyone using alternate initiative systems in their 5e games? What? Is it working well? Let me know in the comments… and check out Ameron’s article about it over at Dungeon’s Master too. He was one of the people I was talking with this about on twitter…
www. Newbie DM .com 
That Robed Guy
January 28, 2015
Initiative Score: Average Dexterity for reflexes with Wisdom for awareness.
(DEX+WIS)/2=Initiative Score
James
January 28, 2015
Interesting concept. In my game, the players pre roll a set of initiatives and I use them as the combats come up. Of course it works because my players don’t mind doing it that way.
Hamenopi
January 28, 2015
I let my players go in whatever order they prefer 90% of the time.
J
January 28, 2015
Savage Worlds uses randomly selected cards. This works so well. Nobody has to write anything down or remember everyone’s roll result and by turning in your card after your activation there is no forgetting who has already moved this turn. Of course that’s SW and not 5E, so good luck!
1958fury
January 28, 2015
I’m not sure about using passive dexterity because it means the same party members will always get to go first. I have had DMs who, when we first all sit down to play, have each of us go ahead and roll 5 or 6 initiatives. The DM keeps the list and just uses those, in order, later in the session when encounters come up.
Anthony Morales
January 28, 2015
What a great idea. I’m gonna try this at my next session. The constraint of fixed initiative would be especially nice for new players. It offers the opportunity to give everyone a job and figure out how to work together. It’s up to the monster to mess it up their system. That said, if the initiative is always the same, for every combat encounter, will it become boring? Or formulaic? The randomness of the dice creates tension, though it can feel weird when the character at the back of the column acts first. Also, fixed initiative will reduce the chances of the slower characters doing something unexpectedly cool, or not cool. For instance, a slow mage wins the first spot in initiative, decides to knife an Orc, rolls a 20 and surprises the party (and himself) by taking out an Orc with one shot, ending the encounter early.
Hungryghoast
January 28, 2015
My main issue with the method you’ve described is that it makes DEX even more of the “best stat” in 5e than it already is (Personally I disagree with that assessment of the DEX stat, but this mod certainly strengthens it). Also I would worry a bit about having orders that are too similar in each combat. Monster variety would place them elsewhere, but the same order for players every time? And what if you want to split large groups of monsters so they don’t all act on that same initiative count? (when I have 10 goblins I don’t like combat that has all 10 acting at once while players sit around and wait their turn)
These are just personal concerns though, the “Run your game the best way you see fit/the best enjoyment for your players” of course applies.
I do agree, though, that the “smash cut” can be jarring and do my best to limit it. I don’t do anything too complicated for initiative, don’t set up cards or etc. Just a quick roll from everyone and jot down on a notecard the order and boom battle is joined.
Now, what I WOULD do, if I could, is a compromise between your system and mine, but that’s facilitated by an ap I use (d20 DM by Lion’s Den for iOS) which can roll initiative for everyone in combat and then displays the order with the press of a button. However! I think my players prefer to roll than to have their order decided either by flat score or by an ap. (comes back to the same issue of how narration and immersion can be ruined by players making their own History/Arcana/Etc rolls, but they insist on having that “control” to make their own rolls)
alphastream
January 28, 2015
I find the variability of initiative to be a key to the game: Knowing the order would seem boring to me, I think. I like that in one combat the monsters might go really quickly, while in another the warrior happens to go first despite being sluggish. If anything, I think a set initiative order would be more incentive for players to check out and look on their phones.
And, honestly, I think that’s the bigger issue. I don’t find initiative to be an issue if players are engaged. I would want to figure out why the players aren’t anticipating the combat and how to engage them, because the combat should matter to them. And, because of that, the result of initiative should matter to them and be interesting.
freerangegeek
January 28, 2015
I think that the current system has 2 drawbacks. First, if you intentionally build a speedy character, but your roll sucks you can end up going after the slow armored tank, just by pure dumb luck. Second, which follows the first, is that certain types want to go last (Cleric who just wants to wait and heal/support those who need it.) So the variant system rewards all of those. And from there you could just reward modifiers for certain scenarios (the tank is walking point so he should go higher in order, or the monsters heard you coming and got ready.)
I’m not concerned with the jump cut issue, that is on the players. If your group is a bunch of ADD kids (like mine) they may even walk away in the middle of combat. And if you get that ‘What? Combat?’ feel free to penalize their initiative order.
alphastream
January 28, 2015
I mentioned this on Dungeons Master: it is worth looking at what Rob Schwalb is doing with his upcoming Shadow of the Demon Lord. His init system is a no-roll system, where players choose to go in one of two phases, Fast or Slow. In each phase, players go first. In the Fast phase, you get one action. In the Slow phase, you get two. There is also a third bookkeeping phase where all ongoing actions are applied or resolved. That would be an interesting system to try out, because the choice of going first or doing more is a payoff players might really pay attention to. Each round you have a strong strategic choice. The system is described here: http://schwalbentertainment.com/2014/11/
Mike
January 28, 2015
I usually have a round of non initiative bound actions (somewhat like a surprise round) where story dictates who acts. If someone had told me they had an arrow knocked, they get to fire it, if someone said they were hiding, they are hiding, etc. Then after that resolves and the action is safely meshed with the act of die rolling, I’ll have them roll “true” initiative, which I’ve house ruled to be “highest roll goes first, then we continue clockwise or counterclockwise alternating”. This results is group initiative but with a certain order that everyone can see and plan for. “I go after the player to my right, etc”. This flows smooth, avoids the smash cut and provided a varied but predictable order. Also, NO BOOKKEEPING!
Black Sneak
January 28, 2015
We like to roll to set the order at the start of the combat, and We liked the first part of the speed factor variant where the DM asks each player what they’re going to do this round (as in 2e), so we mixed them together.
When the party are exploring and something happens, the DM asks each player what they’re going to do. We then roll a standard initiative check to set the order (i.e. without applying a speed factor). As each following round starts, the DM asks each player what they intend to do.
In a standard initiative cycle, each player can respond to the previous player’s action, even thought it’s supposed to be the same 6 second period. That can cause players to rethink their action or change their course, which adds more time.
The way we’re playing, everyone is (roughly) acting in the same 6 second period. it doesn’t matter what the guy before you in the initiative order does; you said you were going to open the door and charge the orc, so that’s what you do. Of course it’s not too strict; if the door is opened some other way and the orc enters your room, we don’t invalidate the predetermined action. The character still charges the orc.
We’re finding it better for immersion. When something happens, asking “what do you want to do?” has quite a different feel from “roll initiative”. We are still in exploration/story mode, not rules mode. Perhaps the players responses mean you don’t even need to roll initiative, and don’t need to break out of story mode.
fkewl
January 29, 2015
Hi NewbieDM, may i suggest to go a bit back to old school roots
You roll 2d6 (i prefer 2d20!) one for the PC’s, the other for the foes, highest wins
You can add modifiers if you want, i don’t for simplicity sake.
Then the side who wins goes in this order
Longest range first, my prefered method or if you are in the “fastest weapon” camp, change the order for polearms-short weapons to short weapons-polearm
1. (for really old school) declare Spellcasting
2 – Gaze or breath weapons
3 – Ranged weapons
4 – Polearms
5 – Long weapons
6 – Medium weapons
7 – Short weapons
8 – Hand, Claws, Bites
9 – Spells go into effect
and done. ..
I found that saying, Ok i’ll be rolling initiative and not have any of the players roll initiative puts more focus on the game than on the player searching their character sheet for initiative numbers. Then just going down the list by longest weapon is just easy, fast and easy.. Did i say easy? 😉
Brian
February 4, 2015
Not for 5e, but could easily be incorporated into 5e: http://trollsmyth.blogspot.com/2008/06/playing-with-initiative.html
Gangrell
February 8, 2015
A new reader and I have enjoyed your article. I’ve tried many different styles of combat initiative including but not limited to; Classic rolling plus bonuses to determine order for the encounter. Bonus’s give multiple die to roll, keep highest roll, do this every round/per encounter. “Pop corn/Round robin”. Latest one is Static order determined by Perception (basically wisdom combined with spot/search in my system.) using higher dex to break ties. Largely different groups seem to prefer different options based on experience with different game engines. The latter option seems to be excepted more and more as long as my players know what options are made available to them.
If a player just HAS to go first or at least before another player, they have the option to “charge the line”. For every step they move forward in the action que, they take a cumulative penalty against making that action. At the end of round they are reset to normal position in line. This give creative characters a chance to act when they feel there action would be most beneficial. For contested “charges” highest dex wins.
For slower characters that want or need a permanent shift in the que, they can “wait for an opening”. By sacrificing all but movement they can judge the timing of an encounter and insert themselves at the start of the line in the next round. This action can be contested with another that is “waiting for an opening”. Winner can be determined by dex or strength per Dm with second going to the loser.
This action is negated should the player actively defend or attack, as focus is directed elsewhere. If disrupted, a turn must be completed before the end of round with the player resuming position as normal. Depending on the system a Dm might decide that defending is ok but requires a concentration check to stay focused. My system uses an active defense system so no check is made.
And of course they can just hold action to go last.
ck
February 10, 2015
My group avoids the smash cut effect by rolling initiative in-between each fight. The players will roll, and note their initiatives on index cards which they hand to the DM. When the next fight arrives, initiative order is already determined. As the DM, I’d pre-roll initiatives for baddies when I built the encounters and keep them on index cards as well.
No smash cut, no problem.
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