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	<title>Comments on: Applying &#8220;Subdual Encounters&#8221; to Encounters vs. Solos</title>
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	<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/</link>
	<description>An Ennie Nominated D&#38;D Blog &#38; Podcast.  Home of tutorials, advice, and downloads for new DM&#039;s</description>
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		<title>By: Mailbag 7–All By Myself, Part 4 : Critical Hits</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-4462</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mailbag 7–All By Myself, Part 4 : Critical Hits]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 10:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-4462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] clear to the monster that it’s going to lose, it should retreat or surrender. Newbie DM had a fantastic idea about applying the rules for subduing a dragon from Draconomicon to use for other solos. (You could [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] clear to the monster that it’s going to lose, it should retreat or surrender. Newbie DM had a fantastic idea about applying the rules for subduing a dragon from Draconomicon to use for other solos. (You could [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Philo Pharynx</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-2056</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philo Pharynx]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:15:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-2056</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I often have bad guys flee or surrender when things are looking bad.  Lurkers and controllers are big on this - they aren&#039;t very good in a direct fight and when the brutes and soldiers are all down, they will often do whatever it takes to save their own skins.  This sometimes happens when they are near full hp.  I also take the creature&#039;s motivations into account - acolytes of a cult are oftne fanatics where mercenaries are more likely to want to survive.  In some cases the bad guys will be able to join another group.  One interesting encounter happened when the majority of the bad guys were defeated, but the party was badly hurt.  It became a standoff where the kobolds left and promised not to return, but took their belongings (i.e. treasure)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I often have bad guys flee or surrender when things are looking bad.  Lurkers and controllers are big on this &#8211; they aren&#8217;t very good in a direct fight and when the brutes and soldiers are all down, they will often do whatever it takes to save their own skins.  This sometimes happens when they are near full hp.  I also take the creature&#8217;s motivations into account &#8211; acolytes of a cult are oftne fanatics where mercenaries are more likely to want to survive.  In some cases the bad guys will be able to join another group.  One interesting encounter happened when the majority of the bad guys were defeated, but the party was badly hurt.  It became a standoff where the kobolds left and promised not to return, but took their belongings (i.e. treasure)</p>
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		<title>By: Swordgleam</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-2037</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Swordgleam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-2037</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t trust my party not to just try to kill it anyway, and get themselves killed trying. Otherwise, I&#039;d have to give this mechanic some thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t trust my party not to just try to kill it anyway, and get themselves killed trying. Otherwise, I&#8217;d have to give this mechanic some thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Hymn Collections For The Week of 11/30 &#171; The Spirits of Eden</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-2036</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hymn Collections For The Week of 11/30 &#171; The Spirits of Eden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-2036</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] explores the concept of Subdual battles to end solo fights quickly. I like event battles of any sort. I feel that 4e&#8217;s large amount [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] explores the concept of Subdual battles to end solo fights quickly. I like event battles of any sort. I feel that 4e&#8217;s large amount [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DiceGolem</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-1957</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DiceGolem]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-1957</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s perfectly reasonable to assume that a powerful and intelligent solo creature would try to bargain with aggressors. Even something as simple as &quot;Don&#039;t kill me, I know that thing you need to know&quot; would be an excellent role-playing opportunity that would otherwise go to waste.

Subdual encounters are also an excellent way to handle sparring with NPC heroes or defeating mythical guardians. Literature has instances when you only needed to prove your worthiness, rather than rend a devious beast limb from limb. Guardians of dangerous locations are best defeated, rather than destroyed; would you really want to kill Charon and let any old shmuck into the underworld?

I&#039;m not so sold on the idea of subdual encounters being applied to group combats. Perhaps that band of orcs fights to the death simply because the shame of surrender would be a death warrant once/if they return to their tribe. Goblins, on the other hand, are a different story entirely! As always, it&#039;s up to the individual DM and his campaign environment to decide when a monster flees or fights to the death.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s perfectly reasonable to assume that a powerful and intelligent solo creature would try to bargain with aggressors. Even something as simple as &#8220;Don&#8217;t kill me, I know that thing you need to know&#8221; would be an excellent role-playing opportunity that would otherwise go to waste.</p>
<p>Subdual encounters are also an excellent way to handle sparring with NPC heroes or defeating mythical guardians. Literature has instances when you only needed to prove your worthiness, rather than rend a devious beast limb from limb. Guardians of dangerous locations are best defeated, rather than destroyed; would you really want to kill Charon and let any old shmuck into the underworld?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so sold on the idea of subdual encounters being applied to group combats. Perhaps that band of orcs fights to the death simply because the shame of surrender would be a death warrant once/if they return to their tribe. Goblins, on the other hand, are a different story entirely! As always, it&#8217;s up to the individual DM and his campaign environment to decide when a monster flees or fights to the death.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumenon</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-1954</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Noumenon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 15:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-1954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;A subdued dragon will grant passage through its territory, part with important lore or clues, or end alliances with foes of the characters.&lt;/i&gt;

That sounds too much like the reward for actually beating him -- it&#039;s treading on the toes of combat by being basically a &quot;half combat.&quot;  I would do subdual as &quot;You&#039;re not strong enough to beat this thing, but like the Sarlacc, you can make its life unpleasant enough that it will go away.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>A subdued dragon will grant passage through its territory, part with important lore or clues, or end alliances with foes of the characters.</i></p>
<p>That sounds too much like the reward for actually beating him &#8212; it&#8217;s treading on the toes of combat by being basically a &#8220;half combat.&#8221;  I would do subdual as &#8220;You&#8217;re not strong enough to beat this thing, but like the Sarlacc, you can make its life unpleasant enough that it will go away.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: AlioTheFool</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-1951</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AlioTheFool]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-1951</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a good idea. It sort of reminds me of the old morale mechanic. Interestingly, I used to dislike morale because I used to think &quot;Well, why would a creature just run when someone was trying to kill it?&quot; Obviously the answer is &quot;Because they don&#039;t want to die.&quot;

I was glad the mechanic was removed from the game, but maybe it&#039;s more appropriate these days? It definitely doesn&#039;t work in every case (such as the above undead situation) but perhaps it could be useful in more than just the solo case? The question is, how would I structure a morale save?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a good idea. It sort of reminds me of the old morale mechanic. Interestingly, I used to dislike morale because I used to think &#8220;Well, why would a creature just run when someone was trying to kill it?&#8221; Obviously the answer is &#8220;Because they don&#8217;t want to die.&#8221;</p>
<p>I was glad the mechanic was removed from the game, but maybe it&#8217;s more appropriate these days? It definitely doesn&#8217;t work in every case (such as the above undead situation) but perhaps it could be useful in more than just the solo case? The question is, how would I structure a morale save?</p>
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		<title>By: Charmth</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-1938</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charmth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 00:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-1938</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read that section in the D:M and didn&#039;t think about applying it to Solos but that is an exceptionally good idea. For any major boss fight this would be a good thing to plan for in advance. Bad guys lie too, so you can implement a dramatic twist by having a villian flee instead of surrendering or attack instead of giving up it&#039;s reward. That would have to be used very lightly, otherwise the players will just go back to hit it till it&#039;s dead methods.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read that section in the D:M and didn&#8217;t think about applying it to Solos but that is an exceptionally good idea. For any major boss fight this would be a good thing to plan for in advance. Bad guys lie too, so you can implement a dramatic twist by having a villian flee instead of surrendering or attack instead of giving up it&#8217;s reward. That would have to be used very lightly, otherwise the players will just go back to hit it till it&#8217;s dead methods.</p>
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		<title>By: Thunderforge</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-1915</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thunderforge]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-1915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Back when Wizards was doing its DM hotline, I asked about the Intimidate to Surrender rule in the PHB and was told that it was mostly intended to be used once or twice a campaign on random mooks rather than solos (otherwise, there&#039;s nothing stopping you from having a high enough Intimidate skill to scare Vecna into surrendering, which is just ridiculous).

Since Wizards says that they don&#039;t intend for solos to be Intimidated to surrender like that, it seems like a subdual encounter is a much better option. If I were running one, I don&#039;t think I&#039;d ask the players first because you&#039;re basically asking &quot;Do you want to fight him till he&#039;s dead or do you want to fight him till he&#039;s bloodied and then talk to him,&quot; which just seems pointless. I&#039;d just let the BBEG talk after he&#039;s bloodied and, should the players decide to attack him after he&#039;s said his thing, just have him book it off the map.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back when Wizards was doing its DM hotline, I asked about the Intimidate to Surrender rule in the PHB and was told that it was mostly intended to be used once or twice a campaign on random mooks rather than solos (otherwise, there&#8217;s nothing stopping you from having a high enough Intimidate skill to scare Vecna into surrendering, which is just ridiculous).</p>
<p>Since Wizards says that they don&#8217;t intend for solos to be Intimidated to surrender like that, it seems like a subdual encounter is a much better option. If I were running one, I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d ask the players first because you&#8217;re basically asking &#8220;Do you want to fight him till he&#8217;s dead or do you want to fight him till he&#8217;s bloodied and then talk to him,&#8221; which just seems pointless. I&#8217;d just let the BBEG talk after he&#8217;s bloodied and, should the players decide to attack him after he&#8217;s said his thing, just have him book it off the map.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://newbiedm.com/2009/11/30/applying-subdual-encounters-to-encounters-vs-solos/#comment-1878</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newbiedm.com/?p=1411#comment-1878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Monsters don&#039;t have to actually surrender when bloodied, but it&#039;s actually kind of unrealistic for a monsters to fight to the death.  Wild animals will generally run away.  A band of orcs might start out willing to fight to the death, but once their numbers have been halved, bloodying one might cause him to flee or consider surrendering if there&#039;s a merciful-looking paladin nearby.

Personally, I like the idea of the enemies being defeated once they are all bloodied (it makes sense, as they have far fewer healing surges than PCs do, so the proportional damage is much higher).  It also means shorter combats (which results in MORE combats!).  Unfortunately, most of my campaign&#039;s recent combats have been against undead and it does make any sense for a zombie to run away or surrender.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monsters don&#8217;t have to actually surrender when bloodied, but it&#8217;s actually kind of unrealistic for a monsters to fight to the death.  Wild animals will generally run away.  A band of orcs might start out willing to fight to the death, but once their numbers have been halved, bloodying one might cause him to flee or consider surrendering if there&#8217;s a merciful-looking paladin nearby.</p>
<p>Personally, I like the idea of the enemies being defeated once they are all bloodied (it makes sense, as they have far fewer healing surges than PCs do, so the proportional damage is much higher).  It also means shorter combats (which results in MORE combats!).  Unfortunately, most of my campaign&#8217;s recent combats have been against undead and it does make any sense for a zombie to run away or surrender.</p>
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