Comments on: Minions… Broken?

By: Doug

Doug — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:32:31 +0000

I plan to house-rule my minions so they have some hit points. Hit points per level sounds about right. The problem I have is that my players really like to see how much damage they deal. It is really anti-climactic when they start to roll damage and I stop them short to remove the figure. I try to describe the hit as much as possible, but they still miss rolling the damage.

Maybe I’ll just rule that any damage dealt that doesn’t deal their level in damage makes them damaged. Any further damage kills them outright. This would still give the players a sense of accomplishment when they destroy another minion in one hit, or cleave through a few of them.

By: ChristopherA

ChristopherA — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 01:14:50 +0000

In response to the blog entry question about how to design a minion of a given level, I responded on my blog:

http://gamedesignfanatic.blogspot.com/2008/11/minion-balancing.html

By: newbiedm

newbiedm — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:21:03 +0000

It’s a little odd that a designer houserules his own game after release…
IMHO anyway…

By: MJ Harnish

MJ Harnish — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:29:19 +0000

“Broken” is a really loaded term that indicates that the rules are seriously flawed or impede game play. Minions aren’t either. Having listened to the podcast episode, the only impression I got was that they feel that Paragon/epic level minions are worth too much XP given the ease at which PCs can take them down. Nowhere did they say “we don’t use them because they screw up the game” or “Wow, they simply don’t work as intended.”

By: newbiedm

newbiedm — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:19:52 +0000

@Scott:
that’s the best explanations of minions so far.
It makes complete sense.

By: Scott

Scott — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:26:04 +0000

It might help to change the way you think about minions. At heroic levels, a minion might just be a particularly fragile goblin or kobold, yes. At paragon levels, minions are the monsters the PCs used to fight at heroic levels — regular goblins, kobolds, orcs, etc., who the party just cuts apart with their vastly superior skill. At epic levels, minions are things like ogres, trolls, lesser demons, and mid-level undead, that used to challenge them at high heroic/low paragon levels.

In order for the minions still to pose some challenge, of course, they have to have appropriate attack and defense values, not the ones that those lesser creatures would have had during the heroic/paragon tiers. But there’s usually some means of explaining that in-game, whether it’s a magical effect, fanatical morale, or just the benefit of a good leader. And conceptually, it’s gold. Players get a kick out of seeing things that were once tough opponents fall left and right to their swords and spells. It gives them a real sense of having progressed in power.

As for actually creating them, what I do is find a monster that’s similar. I change its damage to a flat average (rounding down to a multiple of 5 if I’m feeling lazy), change its hp to 1, and get rid of all but one power. Instant minion.

By: Neubert

Neubert — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:11:05 +0000

True. It is not perfect, but most fixes would take up game time. As mentioned in the link above (or in earlier comments), some other fixes were to have a damage reduction so a low amount of damage won’t kill it, but that has it’s own disadvantages as mentioned. Giving minions hp would defeat the entire purpose of minions in my mind. So there are no easy solution and I think any fixes will be based on the liking of the individual DM.

By: newbiedm

newbiedm — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:30:52 +0000

@Neubert:
My only issue with that is adding another die roll to the mix in a system with drawn out battles as it is, I am weary of adding more rolls…

As an aside, I was looking at the epic minions in Draconomicon…. Consider the Blade of the Pharaoh, a level 28 minion:
Melee: Bronze Pike +33 vs. AC; 11 damage
Ranged: Breath of Sand; Close Blast 5; +31 vs. Reflex; 6 fire damage
Special: If a target takes breath of sand damage from multiple
blades in the same round, this attack has additional eff ects.
These eff ects are cumulative, and each requires a separate save.
Two Blades: Ongoing 10 fi re damage (save ends).
Three Blades: Slowed (save ends).
Four or More Blades: Blinded (save ends).

Any opinions?

By: Neubert

Neubert — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:19:42 +0000

The problem is mostly (from what I have heard) automatic damage, which players has too much of at later levels.
I posted a comment on another blog about minion house rules (http://gamedesignfanatic.blogspot.com/2008/11/minion-house-rules.html), which resulted in the following post: http://gamedesignfanatic.blogspot.com/2008/11/minion-house-rules-option-e.html
In short, you give minions a saving throw whenever they would normally take automatic damage. On 10+, they live, otherwise they die.

Also, I am wondering whether to let my players know which opponents are minions and not. I have so far, but I could also imagine that it makes for a more interesting battle if the players can’t tell them apart (as mentioned above). I usually describe what armor and weapons they are carrying, and after the first kill of a minion, they know which tokens are the minions.
But I suppose if I did not tell them, a lot of guesswork would start, based on how much damage my players take.

By: Dead Orcs

Dead Orcs — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 04:06:25 +0000

I’m not sure I’d call minions “broken”, but I think there’s a good point to be made in the efficacy of Epic minions. I think an argument for some kind of “ratcheting up” mechanic could be made. For me, this might mean, Heroic minion: as is, Paragon minion: hit points per level, Epic minion: hit points per level and you can’t kill them in one shot. Just my two cents, of course. I haven’t really had the opportunity (as a DM) to use the higher level minions.